Your image and the showy church
Here are two more questions from the comment section on a post from a week or so ago, as well as my reactionary responses. In other words, they may not be correct responses, but that’s what’s going on in my head. Feel free to add some questions to this or to tell me I’m wrong.
Are we worried too much about what people think?
Yes. I don’t recall this being so much of a problem for Jesus as it is for us.
Is the current church more worried about the show and numbers than it is about God?
I have seen some places that are much more worried about the show and numbers than God. I’ve attended those places and it was blatantly obvious to me what their primary concern was. Let me say that when you are attempting to be culturally relevant and attractive to people who need to engage in a relationship with Christ, it is much easier to fall down that slippery slope of numbers and show. But, the numbers represent people who have the potential to be in a lifelong relationship with their creator.
I think those people who say, “It really doesn’t matter if two come or two thousand, we’re just going to keep at it,” I think those people are lying to themselves and failing the world. First off, if only two people come on a consistent basis, you might not be presenting a message that reaches people. Secondly, you as a person/church cannot sustain on only two people (financially, spiritually). Thirdly, that’s sad to me that people are okay with only two showing up when there are untold numbers out there that are not in relationship with Christ and furthermore (as I’ve said before) they don’t know that they don’t know that they don’t have that relationship. So what I’m saying is that we have to present a message that draws people to a place where they can meet Jesus without getting lost in the showiness of it.
Perhaps the more appropriate question that will help keep from the church from falling into the trap of the show and numbers comes from a book I read to two nights ago by a couple of people from Willow Creek. They offered this, “Instead of asking ‘how many,’ we should be asking ‘how many people did we move closer to Christ?’”
Scott Fillmer
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 7:08 am
I have been in numbers churches and anti-numbers churches, there has to be a middle ground. Numbers are important, otherwise we wouldn’t ever keep track of them. Do you (readers) look a your stats? If you do, why? Bloggers may not live on stats but we do look at them.
Numbers are important for churches for many legit reasons. Planning for one. Planning is a big part of building or just maintaining a church and without “numbers” it is about impossible. The balance is what is important to me anyway.
Michael
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 8:29 am
For me it all comes down to this – if we bring them in the door – we are doing what we are suppose to be doing – telling everyone. But if we leave that persons hanging once they commit – we have failed – haven’t we? With that in mind, I ask this – if all we say is “how many people did we move closer to Christ?” and stop there have we failed?
Brian Johnson
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 8:38 am
No, we did not fail. We actually can’t go much further than this. A flawed way of thinking, but one which most of us have is that it is the church’s responsibility to bring people to Christ and make sure they grow. This is not the church’s responsibility at all. It is up to the individual to make certain that they are growing in Christ. Certainly the church can be a part of that, but it is not the sole responsibility. Our job is to be a refuge for the poor and broke, to introduce them to Jesus and also to be a refuge for the saints, and to care for the widows and orphans. We’re an inlet and an outlet so to speak.
My growth is up to me, I can’t lay that on someone else. Jesus said, “You pick up your cross and follow me.” He did not say, “let the church pick up and you just make sure you are there.” I won’t grow because my church offered a program. I will grow because I make a commitment to be in prayer and be in study and be in intimate relationship.
Michael
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 9:03 am
Interesting conversation… and to that I say hmmm…. and this… (In case you cannot tell I love to ask questions.)
So, do you think that it is not our responsibility to help nurture that new desire? To be mentors in some way? To provide guidance in some fashion? I totally agree that it is up to the individual to grow, but isn’t it up to us to help with that growth? If a person doesn’t know where to turn to first – have we failed (ie. bring the next one in and move on mentality)? If they do not have mentors of some sort – and with so many versions of the “truth” out there, where do they turn to? Inward? Approaching it in a naive way? Operating in a circle – constantly searching?
If you recall our discussion in James 3:1 – In order to teach, a person must be held at a higher standard than that of you and me. Why? Well, if a person is responsible for teaching us, guiding us, offering us council, that person is guiding our spiritual life. They are helping us grow… yes we need to be accountable to ourselves and our spiritual growth, but I am wondering if we were meant to grow without the help of others – without the help of others that God has put in our path…
Michaels last blog post..Romans 3: 1-8
Michael
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 9:07 am
And to me “many versions of truth” is plain and simple – Jesus. I am not talking about denominations here.
Michaels last blog post..Romans 3: 1-8
Brian Johnson
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 9:17 am
I hear you. But that’s why I tempered my response with, “the church should certainly be a part of the process.” We are an inlet where people can come to acquire knowledge and relationships that will help them grow. We should be a part of nurturing a desire and providing guidance. But if we build too heavy of a reliance on the church, then I think people build in a crutch. In other words, when the training wheels need to come off, they might not. Those two extra wheels are a nice support, but you’ll never be able to truly have the freedom of the bike with them on. In truth, they’ll always be slower with those extra wheels on, timid and unwilling to ride without them.
Michael
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 9:40 am
Again hmmm…. looks like we are saying a lot of the same thing, just with a slightly different slant. My conclusion to this is that I feel that the church, with regard to relatively new Christian, must be there and provide guidance. The timing will depend on the individual. If not that person will become discouraged and stop learning, growing and asking. There needs to be a safe “training wheels” period, but totally agree that they need to come off at some point… but we know that some will never want them off.
thousands of thoughts, thousands of questions that can go another thousand directions…take care.
Michaels last blog post..Romans 3: 1-8
Michael
Wednesday, 18th June 2008 at 11:39 am
Nice discussion btw…
Michaels last blog post..Romans 3: 1-8