Romans 3.9-20
Its Tuesday again, time for Blogger Small Group. Get in on this, leave some feedback. You can find everyone else’s thoughts on this here, or link to the main man’s page at vagabondrunn.wordpress.com.
Original Understanding (what those people heard 1900 something years ago):
Heavy, heavy, heavy. Paul just drops it on them. He just boldly says, “you are all under sin.” Then he basically says, “Just in case you don’t get that, let me show you a few scriptures from back in the day that will point that out.” So he calls on Isaiah and David to share a few words of wisdom. There is no room in here for anyone to suggest that someone can be good through their own doing. Everyone chooses evil and that’s all there is to it. Paul is making his case for man’s depravity.
Furthermore, he makes certain that Jewish people don’t suggest that they have a way out because of their relationship to the Law. Paul says that no one is declared righteous by the Law. In fact, the Law was given to reveal sin. The Jewish people were in a habit of suggesting that because they had received the covenant, and that God had chosen them, then he would spare them condemnation. It was not that they thought following all the laws would spare them. That was part of their understanding, but mainly they believed they would be spared because of the covenant relationship they shared with the Creator as His chosen people. Paul shatters this belief by showing that the Law only reveals sin and demonstrates our complete depravity and low standing before the righteousness of God. Sin had always existed (well, after the garden anyway) before Moses came along, but there was nothing that pointed it out so clearly like the Law did. The Law causes one to be fully aware of the sin.
Today’s Understanding (what we should hear 1900 something years later):
Virtually the same thing. Nothing has changed in the course of history. People born today are no different than the people that were born in Rome in the first century. The problem of sin is still thriving and well. Turns out that we all still need Him.
What I’m hearing in this passage:
I say that as if the message is going to be totally different for me, but in this section I like to put my personal experience on it. While I always understood this truth, I’d say it took me a long time to really accept the truth of it, namely that before Christ redeemed me I was evil and everything I chose was for my own good, my own personal gain. Mainly, I didn’t want to accept this because it exposes me as selfish and greedy. I wrote a post yesterday on this that proves that I still struggle with this, and I believe everyone still does (it was called, “a little note to God“).
Now down to the last section in Romans 3. 9-20. For far too long I connected doing “good things” with my righteous stance before God. This understanding was shattered a few years ago as I realized my standing before Him is set by Him, not my “good deeds.” I know we will talk more about this later, but the passage brought this to my mind, so I thought I would mention it here. I’m not righteous based on me or what I do. I can’t be. He declares my righteousness. My deeds are just the overflow of the love I have for Him, the response for what He’s done for me.
Lastly, this passage really brings in a huge perspective on how I relate to other people. You are all just as dirty and grimey as I am, doesn’t that make you feel good. Fortunately, I am worse than you (Paul says that at one point, “I am the chief sinner”). Who am I to go around with a haughty spirit. I can’t…and yet I do. Its all very disheartening in fact when I think about the pretentious air that I put on but have no right to. This passage is slamming me this week.
Thoughts on the passage?
Heath
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 5:51 am
Can you get an Amen? Amen! I’m totally with you this week. I didn’t have to read your post like 20 times to figure out what direction you were going. I approached the haughty spirit from a different point of view. I have always known how “dirty and grimey” I am. For the longest time after coming home from church I would get depressed because I saw so many people that were so much better than I. I didn’t feel like I had the right to be there. This passage reveals that everyone is “dirty and grimey” and later on we will see that I’m loved by God just as much as anyone else. This lifts so many burdens off of my shoulders you have no idea.
Heaths last blog post..We’re all in the same sinking boat.
Michael
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 6:43 am
That put into words what I was thinking… my deeds are just the overflow of the love I have for Him, the response for what He’s done for me…I have struggled connecting the deeds and faith conversation at times.
Michaels last blog post..Romans 3: 9-20 – Blogger Small Group
Scott Fillmer
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 7:53 am
I love how you split this up today, then and now. In the then part you make the statement that we all choose evil, which I could take in a hundred directions but that is what free will has given us, the ability to choose one path or another. We can choose the path of selfishness and sin, or a path that leads to God. Great post.
Brian Johnson
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 9:01 am
I don’t think you can take it a hundred ways. I think that’s exactly what Paul is saying. You can’t just choose good. We all are “prone to wander” and to go our own way, i.e. the way that is not God’s. Verse 11, “no one who seeks God.” Verse 12, “There is no one who does good, not even one.” Thoughts?
Scott Fillmer
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 9:20 am
I think you actually read what I was saying a little slideways, and I didn’t word it very well either… I was just referring to the theological discussions that can go back and forth on free will, which then moves into the part coming up in Romans 8:29-30.
I agree of course with verse 12, there is only one who does good. That isn’t really a point of discussion, that is what it is… BUT… I do think you can choose good or evil. We can choose either, but we are “predestined to” (rom 8:29-30) wander, so to speak.
You said “you can’t just choose good” and I think that is not totally accurate. We choose to do good over evil all the time when we pay for something instead of steal it, or stop at a red light instead of run it, or choose to help others over killing them. This is the conscience of the Law. These are the basic principles that the law gives us, don’t steal, don’t murder, etc etc. I am wondering here myself but you get the idea.
I keep going back and forth in my own mind between the Law (being our conscience of what sin is) and the free will to do these things we know are sin. Sin is sin, I see no difference in lying and murder but the consequences are different. We can choose a sin that will have a life changing effect on those around us, or we can choose not to.
I think I will stop there, I could go on forever I guess.
Brian Johnson
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 9:24 am
okay, I see what you mean. But I’m looking broader in scope, while you are looking at a more detailed approach. I’m saying in the grand scheme of things we could never just choose to always do good because we are “under sin.” We are slaves to it. However, on an individual basis there are moments where we can choose right or wrong.
Brian Johnson
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 9:25 am
well, we could never choose it before redemption (in the broad scope)
Scott Fillmer
Tuesday, 24th June 2008 at 9:34 am
ahhhh, right right… you put in the word I needed. we could never just choose to always do good because we are “under sin”.
Yes, true statement, it is impossible, even as a young child, we are still stained with the mark of sin. A little kid will lie long before they ever know or have been taught not to, so in your context you are right on.
My mind was focused on how/why we choose specific sin, with the knowledge we have, but you gave the answer.
Cindy
Friday, 27th June 2008 at 3:53 pm
Hi, Brian
Nice post and well done. I had a hard time finding your name–and interesting to discover you preach at a United Methodist church, which is what I grew up in. Anyway, as I said–great post. It made me think about my own ‘thing’ I’ve been contemplating this week. The
Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father”. I’m okay with “Father”, but saying “Daddy”, as is, I’m told, the translation of “Abba” seems so presumptuous. Because I feel kind of like Heath in that I wonder how God could ever want that kind of intimacy with me. Who am I? But thank God, I am in Christ.
Strangely, I also struggle with your mentioned problem of pride. I slip out of unworthiness, to pride in my own “holiness” and forget who I really am without Jesus. It’s a constant struggle this way and that. I think that’s part of what Paul was expressing later in Romans as well. It’s sin within us still struggling for control. The devil doesn’t care which trap he catches us in and will contradict himself from one moment to the next–and how often do we fall for this? Over and over. Thank God for His grace and mercy. On our own, we’re helpless and hopeless. With Him, we are the light of the world.
God Bless,
Cindy