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	<title>Comments for Clean Straight Lines</title>
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	<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com</link>
	<description>a Blog by Brian Johnson</description>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by bslash</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1682</link>
		<dc:creator>bslash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1399#comment-1682</guid>
		<description>Great points Mark. I&#039;m all about being paid. I&#039;ve been in ministry for ten years now and paid by the church for much of it. And I often say, pay the worker his wages, we don&#039;t need to take advantage of people just because they are &quot;good at something.&quot; So I agree with you. 

I think it&#039;s biblical. I&#039;m wondering more if people use it as an excuse not to live missionally as opposed to answering the question, &quot;Should we get rid of paid staff?&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great points Mark. I&#8217;m all about being paid. I&#8217;ve been in ministry for ten years now and paid by the church for much of it. And I often say, pay the worker his wages, we don&#8217;t need to take advantage of people just because they are &#8220;good at something.&#8221; So I agree with you. </p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s biblical. I&#8217;m wondering more if people use it as an excuse not to live missionally as opposed to answering the question, &#8220;Should we get rid of paid staff?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1681</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1399#comment-1681</guid>
		<description>Would love to hear some comments on the following passage from 1st Corinthians 9. Wondering if I&#039;m missing something here (especially verse 14):

3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don&#039;t we have the right to food and drink? 5Don&#039;t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord&#039;s brothers and Cephas? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?

 7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn&#039;t the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: &quot;Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.&quot;Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn&#039;t he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn&#039;t we have it all the more?

   But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don&#039;t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

It appears that Paul did not use the &quot;right&quot; in order to avoid hindering the gospel; but he certainly did not encourage what he did to be the established practice for the local church should be (i.e., esp. v. 14). 

Paul repeats his quote of Deuteronomy  25 when he is mentoring the new young pastor Timothy in 1st Timothy 5:

17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, &quot;Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,&quot;and &quot;The worker deserves his wages.&quot;

Paul is obviously talking about the same thing.

While there are abuses of indulgent pastors on one end and abused pastors by stingy congregations on the other, a balanced approach clearly taught in Scripture to provide necessities to full-time pastors is biblically supported.

I am seriously looking into these very things and would love to hear commentary yea or nay.

Thanks for the post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would love to hear some comments on the following passage from 1st Corinthians 9. Wondering if I&#8217;m missing something here (especially verse 14):</p>
<p>3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don&#8217;t we have the right to food and drink? 5Don&#8217;t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord&#8217;s brothers and Cephas? 6Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?</p>
<p> 7Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn&#8217;t the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses: &#8220;Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.&#8221;Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10Surely he says this for us, doesn&#8217;t he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12If others have this right of support from you, shouldn&#8217;t we have it all the more?</p>
<p>   But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13Don&#8217;t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.</p>
<p>It appears that Paul did not use the &#8220;right&#8221; in order to avoid hindering the gospel; but he certainly did not encourage what he did to be the established practice for the local church should be (i.e., esp. v. 14). </p>
<p>Paul repeats his quote of Deuteronomy  25 when he is mentoring the new young pastor Timothy in 1st Timothy 5:</p>
<p>17The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18For the Scripture says, &#8220;Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,&#8221;and &#8220;The worker deserves his wages.&#8221;</p>
<p>Paul is obviously talking about the same thing.</p>
<p>While there are abuses of indulgent pastors on one end and abused pastors by stingy congregations on the other, a balanced approach clearly taught in Scripture to provide necessities to full-time pastors is biblically supported.</p>
<p>I am seriously looking into these very things and would love to hear commentary yea or nay.</p>
<p>Thanks for the post!</p>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by lisa</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1676</link>
		<dc:creator>lisa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 23:37:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The mission tourism or mission vacation is a systems issue within the church itself. A culture of missions must be cultivated with being faithful locally before we go globally. Therefore, my bias is not to have people serve on international trips until they&#039;ve been active in local missions. Additionally, intentional dialogues about what we experienced in serving and what that means is inperative-even after spomething as simple as a half work day</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mission tourism or mission vacation is a systems issue within the church itself. A culture of missions must be cultivated with being faithful locally before we go globally. Therefore, my bias is not to have people serve on international trips until they&#8217;ve been active in local missions. Additionally, intentional dialogues about what we experienced in serving and what that means is inperative-even after spomething as simple as a half work day</p>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by Scott Fillmer</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1674</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Fillmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 02:39:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1399#comment-1674</guid>
		<description>Missional-vacation should have been mission-vacation... amazing how much difference an &quot;al&quot; can make.  In other words, those in the church who take their 2-week vacation for that mission trip and feel they have done their missional work and after that 2-weeks the work is done for that year.

In other words, it is not a specific time frame or point in time, it is a lifestyle.
.-= Scott Fillmer&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/MyLifeInLa/~3/LaZOc-6XyQ8/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2009 Year End Photo-Video&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Missional-vacation should have been mission-vacation&#8230; amazing how much difference an &#8220;al&#8221; can make.  In other words, those in the church who take their 2-week vacation for that mission trip and feel they have done their missional work and after that 2-weeks the work is done for that year.</p>
<p>In other words, it is not a specific time frame or point in time, it is a lifestyle.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Scott Fillmer&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/MyLifeInLa/~3/LaZOc-6XyQ8/" rel="nofollow">2009 Year End Photo-Video</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by J.B.</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1673</link>
		<dc:creator>J.B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 18:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1399#comment-1673</guid>
		<description>That is most definitely a reason, but pastors getting paid isnt anything new. It probably is a westernized concept of the church (therefore unintentional). It is HIS job,  not mine , as your thought indicated. Pastors and ministries must build a culture that encourages the missional. Most church members think being a christian is just &quot;getting saved&quot; , reading the bible, praying and not doing certain things. They dont understand the call to serve others with love. I think that it starts with the leadership, if the leaders model this by action, the church will follow. (or leave) They must convey to the church that it is OUR job as christians to love others through service with the gospel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is most definitely a reason, but pastors getting paid isnt anything new. It probably is a westernized concept of the church (therefore unintentional). It is HIS job,  not mine , as your thought indicated. Pastors and ministries must build a culture that encourages the missional. Most church members think being a christian is just &#8220;getting saved&#8221; , reading the bible, praying and not doing certain things. They dont understand the call to serve others with love. I think that it starts with the leadership, if the leaders model this by action, the church will follow. (or leave) They must convey to the church that it is OUR job as christians to love others through service with the gospel.</p>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by bslash</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1672</link>
		<dc:creator>bslash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1399#comment-1672</guid>
		<description>I have no idea what that means</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have no idea what that means</p>
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		<title>Comment on paid clergy // missional living by Scott Fillmer</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/25/paid-clergy-missional-living/comment-page-1/#comment-1671</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Fillmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 17:22:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1399#comment-1671</guid>
		<description>In short, yes... 

I have long realized that many people view those who get paid to do the missional work as those who are supposed to DO the missional work.  The separation is made even more distinct (or confusing) when you throw in the missional-vacation.
.-= Scott Fillmer&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/MyLifeInLa/~3/LaZOc-6XyQ8/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;2009 Year End Photo-Video&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In short, yes&#8230; </p>
<p>I have long realized that many people view those who get paid to do the missional work as those who are supposed to DO the missional work.  The separation is made even more distinct (or confusing) when you throw in the missional-vacation.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Scott Fillmer&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/MyLifeInLa/~3/LaZOc-6XyQ8/" rel="nofollow">2009 Year End Photo-Video</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
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		<title>Comment on deep church // the third way by Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/24/deep-church-the-third-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1670</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1391#comment-1670</guid>
		<description>Thanks! We&#039;re in Saint Louis. It seems I&#039;m a perpetual student. I&#039;m a grad student at the university of Missouri-St. Louis studying philosophy and working with a church plant here in town.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks! We&#8217;re in Saint Louis. It seems I&#8217;m a perpetual student. I&#8217;m a grad student at the university of Missouri-St. Louis studying philosophy and working with a church plant here in town.</p>
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		<title>Comment on deep church // the third way by bslash</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/24/deep-church-the-third-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1669</link>
		<dc:creator>bslash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:34:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1391#comment-1669</guid>
		<description>And congratulations on the baby! Where are you guys at now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And congratulations on the baby! Where are you guys at now?</p>
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		<title>Comment on deep church // the third way by bslash</title>
		<link>http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/2010/02/24/deep-church-the-third-way/comment-page-1/#comment-1668</link>
		<dc:creator>bslash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.cleanstraightlines.com/?p=1391#comment-1668</guid>
		<description>We are doing well Matt, Thank you.

So, even if they are a part of the &#039;church&#039; by being a part of Judaism, were they full followers or do they merely belong to a community? 

I&#039;m wondering how we take people to full followers in today&#039;s context. We seem to want to thrust them into the final movement, without taking them on the journey to get there.

Basically, can you be a disciple before you take up your cross?

(Loving the Tozer comment)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are doing well Matt, Thank you.</p>
<p>So, even if they are a part of the &#8216;church&#8217; by being a part of Judaism, were they full followers or do they merely belong to a community? </p>
<p>I&#8217;m wondering how we take people to full followers in today&#8217;s context. We seem to want to thrust them into the final movement, without taking them on the journey to get there.</p>
<p>Basically, can you be a disciple before you take up your cross?</p>
<p>(Loving the Tozer comment)</p>
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